Since I am in the middle of exams, and it has been woefully long since a podcast has been uploaded, I present an article on netlists to keep you satisfied. 

Net list debate 

I felt the need to write this article about net lists and net listing, partly to defend myself against the jabs and to promote ideas.  We have all looked at them, and probably everyone has tried them out.  However, there seems to be an actual definition of net listing, and a perceived definition of net listing.  I am here to break down the thoughts on net listing, and the faux pas behind it. 

Net list: A list that is popular and has won tournaments.  It has been posted on the internet multiple times because of its strength and success rate. 

By running a net list there is a conceived notion about you: you have no imagination, and rather then using your brain to make your own list, you just used a net list because you care more about winning then anything else.  Also, if there wasn’t an internet you would be a lot worse at the game. 

However, when dealing with Warhammer 40,000 armies, we are dealing with a fairly small fishbowl.  Once you select your army, you only have so many choices.  Also, it is easy to see which choices are “good” – powerful and pointcosted correctly, and which units are mediocre or bad (I am looking at you pyrovore).  Because people want to win tournaments, and people can see which armies and units are good, we get “generalized” netlists, that usually involve some sort of spam.

 The recent history of netlists, or mechanized lists 

The first and biggest was spacewolves spamming multiple units of longfangs and greyhunters in razorbacks.  So began the mechanized spam that we see today.  Imperial Guard came with their mass veterans in chimeras and vendettas, blood angels showed up with their fast razorbacks and predators, and dark eldar showed up with their venoms and raiders.  Why?  Because Warhammer revolves around mobility and troop choices right now, and all of these armies can put multiple units out safely in their transports.  All the transports have a small chance of blowing up other transports, and so we live in a “Battle of the Bulge” state of 40k.

 Then Grey Knights showed up.  Everyone runs multiple transports and vehicles, and Grey Knights were given one of the cheapest and most reliable answers to vehicles: PsyDreads.  Armed with 2 twin linked autocannons these guys can shut down any vehicle in one turn.  Given the fact that they can ignore shaken and stunned results means they can trade with other vehicles, and they even come with psychic defense.  They are also supported by THE best counter-attack unit in the game: DeathCult Assassins. 

So, everyone brings mass transports.  Grey knights show up with not only transports but Psydreads as well.  Grey Knight players defeat all, and the screaming of “cheese” and “net list” appear. 

So with Grey Knights out there, it would appear that you shouldn’t bring transports, or if you do play Grey Knights.  However, the other notion would just be to bring no transports, and bring lots of troops that can deal with vehicles.  This would be against the meta and win right?  Wrong.  Unfortunately, there is one army out there that absolutely destroys this changing of the meta: Dark Eldar.  With their massive amounts of poison weapons on their venoms and troops, they decimate infantry lists.  If Dark eldar didn’t exist, then mobile infantry lists would emerge again, people would see the faults of bringing mechanized lists, and some sort of balance would ultimately settle with the dust.  There would be advantages AND disadvantages to bringing a mechanized list.  However, I have seen dark eldar decimate blood angel infantry, necron infantry, guard infantry, black templar infantry, dark angel infantry, etc etc.  The dark eldar monobuild IS mass venoms and poison shots, so infantry lists cannot be competitive right now.  Also, since Grey Knight lists exist, Dark Eldar lists will get decimated by the Grey Knight lists.  This creates a vicious circle:  No one plays dark eldar because Grey knights have stamped them out.  Then people begin to bring infantry lists to beat the Grey Knight lists, and Dark Eldar re-emerges to crush these lists.  The cycle goes on and on. 

Luckily, 6^th edition is coming up and hopefully everything changes.  Hopefully everyone has to go back to the drawing board because the lists that exist right now will not work.  OR, they will need some heavy adaptation to remain competitive.  This theory hopefully means that new armies will emerge, or even old codicies will see the spotlight again. 

So, back to net listing.  Point is that these lists exist on the internet and they do well.  Just recently at adepticon the last table was between space wolf razorbacks versus grey knights.  However, these were more “net builds” then “net lists”  While the grey knight list included dreadnoughts, death cult assassins, warrior acolytes, and coteaz, it was not an identical build found on the internet.  He also used purifiers and chimeras.  The point is everyone’s net build is going to be a little bit different because they have tweaked it to their playstyle and what they think works best in the current environment.  I love using two storm ravens in my Coteaz build because I feel it gives you more threats and mobility.  The adepticon coteaz build focused on more transports and bodies to allow him to cover more ground, and still be able to win with a bad turn or bad dice rolls. 

Netlisting: the right way

 So, should you netlist?  Or at least look at netlists for ideas?  Yes.  Why?  A professional magic player said it best: “There are the players that specifically homebrew.  There are those that only use netlists.  However, neither is better than the player that does both.” 

There is a right way and a wrong way to “net build”.  The wrong way is to build the list and play it for months on end without changing a thing.  While you will learn to play the list, and eventually win with it, you will lose in the long run.  People will eventually be aware that you are running the list continually, and will then develop counters to beat it: either by bringing in units to beat the list, or adapting their tactics accordingly. 

So, the question is how to learn from netlisting, and not continually use it as a crutch.  The beginning will be the same.  Build the netlist, and play with it.  Play a lot, and against different armies and builds.  You will begin to understand why the netlist is good, and why it works.  You will develop the nuances and tactics that the people that made the list already know.  You will also learn what works versus what armies, and what doesn’t.  Once you are comfortable with the list, take it to some tournaments.  This is prime territory to play the list against other competitive builds, and see if you really have mastered the list.  Be ready for the cries, the jabs, and the side comments.  Be ready for those from the beginning. 

Once you have mastered the list, now is the chance to set yourself apart from others.  Change and tweak the list.  Take units out, exchange them with other units.  Try different variations of the units, and try different numbers of the “spam units”.  For example, with the Coteaz build:  The number of dreadnaughts you take, as well as the transports and amount of deathcult assassins you take.  Some people run a storm raven, some people run two.  Some people run land raiders instead, or mix and match.  Some run none at all, like the list at adepticon. 

This will give you a greater understanding of the list, and the game in general.  You are basically reverse-engineering the list, by going through the trial and error that the original creators went through.  You will try other units, and find out why they weren’t used.  You might increase squad sizes and/or upgrades, and find them unnecessary.  You will take out units, or try other units to replace them, and then wish you hadn’t.  You are understanding why the list has the units it has, and why it runs how many of them.

 However, during this process you will begin to tweak the list.  Maybe you find units that work better, or work better for you.  Maybe the upgrades work for you, or maybe you like one unit over another.  Maybe a landraider and 2 dreads works better for you instead of a storm raven and 3 dreads.  By experimenting with the list, you will not only find out what doesn’t work, but also what does.  You might find units that help versus a certain opponent, and you might find unit choices and upgrades that just fit your play style better.  I am a more aggressive player by nature, and the original Coteaz build was too defensive and gun line for me.  By adding the two storm ravens, I have greater mobility.  While I still play the list like a gun line, I can zoom across the battlefield and bash faces in with the assassins if necessary. 

At the end of the day (week….month…year…) You will have a “hybrid” – a netlist that you have tweaked and suited to you.  While it may have components from the original net list, it will have units and tweaks for you that you want to play.  People will still cry cheese and jab with net list jokes, but you aren’t netlisting anymore.  You have evolved.  Since you wanted to play this army all along, why start from scratch when you had an amazing template to start with?  While some might see this hybrid worse competitively then the original netlist, it will be better because it suits you and it is for you.  You have played with it, and you have mastered it.  Also, you have been with this list for so long that now you can tweak it given the meta environment.  Everyone ready to blow up storm ravens and land raiders?  Bring more chimeras and razorbacks to overload them.  Everyone ready for 5-6 dreadnoughts?  Bring 3 and purifiers.  This is a prime example where similar units do the same job.

 Now, throughout the whole process, you will continue to get jabbed as net lister, even when running your hybrid.  Just be ready for it.   However, when your name is announced in first place, or the top 2-3, you can know it was not only the list, it was you.  Also, when a new army book comes out that you may be interested in, now you have the tools and preparations to build the next net list.

Hey guys, sorry it took so long.  School + work = no free time, or sleep for that matter.  We do some minor news and e-mails.  Then we talk about some tournaments we went to, everyone bashes on shrek and grey knights.  Then we get into a really good discussion about the necrons and Deryk's Dark Eldar.  Finally, we have a good laugh reading the FAQ's but cover the important stuff.

00:02:03 pod cast

00:02:40 news

00:03:34 email

00:04:34 what we’ve been up to geckos tourney

00:17:45 What weve been up to - tower of games tourney

00:42:16 We start to analyze our lists and how we can change or tweak them

01:01:37 Covering the FAQ updates

Emails at 40kwarcasting@gmail.com and our website at fortykwarcasting.libsyn.com

Alright guys working on a mini computer game of a dreadnought (to hone my programming skills in the off time)  Anyways, currently working on the movement on the dreadnoughts feet.  Do they look like they're going too fast?  Should I slow the feet movement down?  Thanks for checking it out.  Hopefully have this into a "game" in a week or two....after editing podcasts of course.

The link:

http://www.4shared.com/file/diNrfdtG/Dreadnought.html

~ Shrek

Shrek, Kelly, and Deryk back with some ramblings.  We talk about an e-mail we received, and what weve been up to.  Finally we go over statistics and probability, and how to use them in your games of 40k.  Finally we cover Deryks dark eldar list, which is pretty much the mono build out there for dark eldar.

Also, we are compiling competitive and playtested lists, so send yours in so it can be added to the stockpile!!!

As always e-mails to 40kwarcasting@gmail.com, and check us out at fortykwarcasting.libsyn.com

00:01:31 podcast

00:14:05 news

00:17:47 email

00:26:02 what weve been up to

00:39:40 Statistics and probability

00:57:05 dark eldar standard tourney list

Shrek, Deryk, and Kelly get their hands on the new necron codex, and give our first glance opinions.  We go unit by unit, discuss a little about the fluff, and then build some lists.  We make alot of scifi references, and even have a nice rules debate at the end.

HUNTERS FROM HYPERSPACE!!!!

Episode 44

00:01:02 pod cast

00:03:57 special rules, overlord, lord, destroyer lord

00:14:00 crypteks, warriors, immortals, lycheguard, 

00:28:25 Deathmarks, flayed ones, triarch praetorians, triarch stalker

00:44:44 C’tan, tomb blades, destroyers, wraiths

01:01:43 scarabs, spyders, monolith, doomsday ark, annhilation barge

01:16:06 doom scythe, night scythe, command barge, ghost ark

01:25:31 special characters

01:43:51 lists 

My friends (guitar solo).  This is mainly a tournament recap as Kelly won the local tournament while Shrek and Deryk went down to south carolina for the 11th company tournament.  Shrek ended up going 5 and 1 and winning his bracket, and Deryk went 2 and 4.   We also discuss how we want to take this podcast back in the competitive direction we always did, and get back into it with talking about the leafblower army in break dis.

Timestamp:

00:01:30 the pod cast and the direction we want to take it

00:04:14 News

00:08:40 what we’ve been up to aka tournament recaps

00:09:03 Marty and his games

00:15:45 Jay and Deryk at 11th company tournament day 1

00:43:47 Jay and Deryk day 2

01:07:43 Kellys tournament

01:30:42 Break dis: leafblower

Take to the sky brothers!! In this episode we talk a little about our preparation for tournaments: Kelly and Marty going to a local cash tournament while Deryk and Jay travel to south carolina for the 11th company tournament.  We start to look over the necrons, go over a listeners list, and then talk about the universal special rules.  

-Note- I didn't truly edit the last 30 minutes of this podcast, or I didn't edit it as much as I could have (but its us going over special rules so how hard could it be) so I apologize for the higher ratio of "um" and "you know".  I wanted to get this out today as we are doing webisode 43 tonight on december 1st, and I want to get that podcast out as quickly as possible.

As always e-mails to 40kwarcasting@gmail.com, our website at fortykwarcasting.libsyn.com, and find us on facebook!!

~ Shrek

timestamp:

00:00:55 Podcast

00:01:35 News with a side discussion on GW policy

00:15:52 What we’ve been up to

00:38:22 getting rdy for 11th company tournament

00:47:39 list from listener

00:54:30 40k Universal special rules

You all love our armycasts.  Also, you all kept asking us to do chaos marines, so here it is!!! We go through all the units, check out the FAQ, and go over some army lists and tactics.  Throughout it we cover what units to take, what not to take, and some synergies between the units.  If you all think we should talk about anything else in these armycasts please let us know!  

Timestamp:

00:01:38 Special Rules

00:05:37 Chosen, bikes, terminators, possessed

00:18:46 chaos lords, sorceror, daemon prince, chaos spawn

00:33:38 raptors, obliterators, khorne beserkers, thousand sons

00:45:30 plague marines, noise marines, dreadnaught, defiler

00:59:10 rhino, predator, vindicator

01:04:48 Special characters

01:15:00 SC intermission to look at FAQ

01:26:03 Our chaos marine lists

As always, send e-mails to 40kwarcasting@gmail.com and check us out at fortykwarcasting.libsyn.com  !!

~ Shrek

Hey guys another great podcast.  We talk about what we've been up to, Shrek's 'ard boyz results, and then get into some really good rule discussions concerning disembarking, multiple assaults, independent characters in assaults, and cover saves.  Our group has been growing on facebook so be sure to join us.  Just search 40k Warcasting!  Also e-mails at 40kwarcasting@gmail.com are always welcome, and our website at http://fortykwarcasting.libsyn.com/

Timestamp:

00:00:40 Podcast

00:02:20 News

00:10:33 What we’ve been up to

00:41:47 Rulebook discussions (KELLY ADMITS HE WAS WRONG!!!)

- disembarking, cover saves, and multiple assaults

Kelly Deryk and I got down for a little podcast to talk and have some fun.  We go over ard boyz prep, talk about space marine, and go over some 1000 point lists our fans sent in.  Feel free to e-mail us at 40kwarcasting@gmail.com !!!

00:01:02 Shirts/pod cast

00:06:08 ard boyz preparation

00:27:05 1000 point lists sent in by listeners

00:44:08 Space Marine video game